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**fnpsr** » 2012-07-06 08:53

Slythatguy, I appreciate your response. However, no one has the answers to my questions and that is the problem. It is unfortunate that you do not know how decision is made in government. There should be standard operating procedure, which includes public discussion, debate in parliament and an up or down vote in parliament. Remember that they work for the people and nothing should be hidden from the people. I don’t think we can wait to see the effect of a project that the government is undertaking. After consultations, debate and full disclosure, we should have a pretty good idea as to whether the project will be successful or not. Most fair-minded people would like to put horse before the cart. If you put the cart before the horse, as we have seen time after time, hundreds of millions of dollars are cast to the wind.

“Let’s fix the little things with RWE before we attempt to fix the big things.”

**SlyThatGuy** » 2012-07-06 08:11

fnprs, I'm sorry that I do not have the facts to your questions. However,I just want to throw it out there that I don't know how decisions are made in government,but I trust that my government will make the correct decisions,the right choices. They have the skill to do it.Usually if I have any concerns about a project the government is undertaking,I normally wait to see the result...of what came of it before I cast criticism.

**Osbert R. Frederick** » 2012-07-06 00:37

Housing projec at Follies, fifty houses and only one sold. Housing project at North Sound, still cannot be completed. Housing project at Jolly Hill, two expensive foul coups built and now bush covering them. This government has failed with housing projects, just like they have failed with every thing else. they even tried to build mud houses. Now they are back trying to fool the people again. Then there is the one proposed by Mr. Codrington. When are these people going to realise that the people of Antigua, especially in the rural areas, don't want any housing projects. They want to buy lands and build their own houses. Just look and see what the people at Morrises in Old Road and the People at Cades Bay did. It is clear that this government realise if it is done the old fashion way, they cannot get their big kickbacks on it, so they come up with these deals called housing projects. Bunch of idiots.

**fnpsr** » 2012-07-05 22:42

Slythatguy, I do not understand your post. You are changing the subject. I have already moved on from the WPP. I only made reference to it because of outstanding issue surrounding it. My post was in reference to the article about the signed agreement with Baupanel and the questions of pessimism raised by by you and rupert j.

"Let's fix the little things with RWE before we attempt to fix the big things."

**SlyThatGuy** » 2012-07-05 22:34

Come on,R. Berry,you've got to be kidding me with this! What you cited from the Prime Minister is quite another topic,you know. Apples and oranges,man. You just can't deny the truth of what I stated before.

**Smart TD** » 2012-07-05 22:18

PM what happened to the Lee Chin investment in 2008,the beaches project ,the poultry farm project?? they all seem to have one thing in common they are all dead end project just like this one will be.

**SlyThatGuy** » 2012-07-05 22:12

fnprs,a press conference has already taken place,remember? An appeal has already been made to the Governor General,and a decision from her has already been handed down,remember? But because of the brazen manner of the leaders of the Antigua Labor Party,they failed to respect the decision handed down.To be honest,the continued call for an inquiry into the already-address ed matter is not coming from the majority of Antiguan & Barbudan,it's coming from leaders of the opposition.You tell me, why after more than a month only one hundred and thirty five(135)signat ure was collected on the petition made available by caribarena's team? Think about it,man.The only reason these leaders want an inquiry is to satisfied their curiosity that the engines are old and their belief that the Prime Minister in not telling the truth about the amount they really cost.If I'm wrong about that ,please give me another reason."Curiosi ty kills the cat"and the ALP wants to kill our finances on an inquiry that we won't gain anything from.

**fnpsr** » 2012-07-05 22:11

Slythatguy, with all due respect, you get no debating points here. I believe that everyone should be really pessimistic in light of the WPP situation. In the present situation, let me know if you are satisfied that we do not know the full details of the agreement. Were the merits of the proposal, as put forward by Ken Hurst, fully debated in parliament and or publicly discussed? Were all the relevant parties involved in the discussion? Did the relevant parties conduct an impact and environmental study? Was the company and its officials properly vetted? Did we contact St. Lucia to see how the company performed there and did they get value for their money and are they satisfied? Are we going to get value for our money? Are you pessimistic because the citizens are asking was the due diligence done? Are you pessimistic about the North Sound, HMB, the Chinese and the Jolly harbor-area housing projects? I could go on, but I would draw your attention to JF II’s post below.

As I stated before, times are changing and folks want to be part of the process.

“Let’s fix the little things with RWE before we attempt to fix the big things.”

**R. Berry** » 2012-07-05 21:22

We're not pessimistic, we're just taking the lead from our PM, who states that "If all sides keep to the agreement, it will be a great success for Antigua & Barbuda,” PM Spencer said."

So who's pessimistic now?

**Maco** » 2012-07-05 21:14

Do you remember last election when our beloved Prime Minister brought Lee Chin saying that he was going to invest in Antigua? Do you remember last election that there was a ground breaking for a Waldorf Astoria Hotel in Antigua and Barbuda? If we allow PM Spencer to fool us again, dont you think we deserve it?

**SlyThatGuy** » 2012-07-05 21:04

I have to say that you're a very astute observer,rupert j. I noticed the same thing, too. And the answer to your question is that we have too many pessimistic people in this country. Pessimism itself is what's preventing us from achieving our goals. It's an impediment to our success. So it's important that we(Antiguan & Barbudan)overco me this negative mindset because the more we think of things in a negative way,the more entrenched that way of thinking will become.

**fnpsr** » 2012-07-05 19:11

Rupert j, I agree with ten man. However, I feel your pain. Times are changing and folks are asking pertinent questions - due diligence . We want to make sure that we always get value for our money. Notice that we have not seen the details of the agreement. We have only been told of the agreement, I,e.,what Baupanel has promised. We would like a complete disclosure of the deal. I think that there should be a press conference, where both sides answer questions.
Whether the govt is red or blue, there must always be due diligence. See JF's post below.

"Let's fix the little things with RWE before we attempt to fix the big things"

**jeb** » 2012-07-05 18:47

Because Antiguans are not easy to fool anymore and commonsense kicks in and tells us that this project reeks of being a xxn…and is most likely, from the timing, a pathetic attempt at a diversion from the power plant issue. If, for example, there was visible and paper evidence of a land purchase and a signing for a reputable beneficial investment (not from China at this time) the comments would, I’m sure, be more positive.
That’s the result of repetitive lying and dishonesty…tota l lack of credibility!

**Morris** » 2012-07-05 18:46

* Who will be supplying the power to these additional houses, will it be the same WPP with its questionable issues?
* How will this impact the overall aesthetics, will there be any avenues for people in the squalor areas acquire any of these "low-income" houses?
* How much strain will this project add to the existing water supply system?
* Is there any plan(s) for sewage treatment, or will there still be the same practice of dumping more $hit at cooks?

**really fed up.** » 2012-07-05 18:41

Gosh jack,ru na tired try fool people.CHUPTZ.

**tenman** » 2012-07-05 18:03

rupert j, since this is all a discussion, if you see positives, why don't you spell them out? As for me, just like in the store the teller checks to ensure the money is authentic, I am only doing the same. I think we can all remember the recent Zacky Mann fiasco which could have been worse if persons were not asking the right questions. After Stanford, Antiguans & Barbudan's are justified in making sure things add up. Did the AG not voice the same thing?

..

**tenman** » 2012-07-05 17:46

Avid Reader adding credence to what you said, there is a 567 sq feet house sitting on 8K sq feet for sale at www.apexrealtorsantigua.com/St_Johns/St_John/Homes/Buckleys/Buckleys/Agent/Listing_16566964.html. They are asking for 169K EC. The house is built from both concrete and wood. Prior to 2004, this government spoke about reducing the high cost of living. When they came into office, they broke the concrete monopoly and instead of prices going down they have more than doubled (from 12.00 per bag of concrete to now 25.00). Electricity prices have almost tripled going from 17 cents (commercial) us per kwh in 2004 to now over 47 US cents. Need not detail the added taxes. However in the US it has moved from 8.9 in 2004 to on average almost 13 cents ($.127 as of march 2012 http://www.bls.gov/ro9/cpilosa_energy.htm) US. Can the average Antiguan & Barbudan, (other than the members of the UPP government eg. PM Spencer) boast that their take home pay is now even double what it was in 2004? This may explain why its hard for the government to see the people's dilemma
..

**rupert j.** » 2012-07-05 17:44

I have read most of the comments and 95% them are negative and I am wonedring why it's like that, is it a mind set or is it something else?.

**Spin Doctor** » 2012-07-05 17:00

Why would any company choose to setup a manufacturing plant on Antigua when the cost of electricity from APUA is so High raising construction costs?

Why would any company setup a manufacturing plant on a small island with little infrastructure?

Why would a company setup a manufacturing plant on an island where the import tax practically doubles the price on any materials imported?

Why would a company setup a manufacturing plant on an island where exporting the finished product will both be difficult and costly.

Why would you build 5000 homes when there are no families who can afford to buy these homes with all the increased UPP taxes?

Where is the infrastructure going to come from to support 50000 extra homes, electricity, water, sewerage?

According to Bau Panel Systems two people are enough to erect a detached house in just 4 weeks, how does that equate to the claim of 1,200 jobs being created? Are they planning on building 500 homes every 4 weeks?

**Avid Reader** » 2012-07-05 16:25

Speaking for myself, it is not that I don't want to see investments in Antigua, but when I see one of these things, I believe that they believe that we are dunces. I asked in a prior post, what kind of house can be built in Antigua for $135,000, to bring in a new company and give them the kitchen sink to this is outrageous.

The effort would be best spent, encouraging the current builders in Antigua, not take away work from them. Why are they not using this initiative with local builders?

This is crazy, why this country cannot get anywhere, reduce import costs and any local builder can compete with this builder they are bringing in. I can assure you that when they are done, there will be no house for $135,000EC, maybe $135,000US, unless they intend to manufacture every piece of material that goes into building this house and that is not feasible. That is what makes this outrageous.

**Avid Reader** » 2012-07-05 16:15

What kind of house are they going to build you for EC $135,000? I am looking to replace a roof on a house and the estimate is EC $130,000, for a roof. How big a fowl coop are they going to be build for Antiguans? Are these #'s for real?, not possible with the cost of material and labor in Antigua.

**young analyst** » 2012-07-05 16:11

According to this, they will contribute about 200 million over 25years, which is just 8 million per year, i wonder in what way would this investment be? after we the people would have to invest in the homes them. seems rather tricky here

**fnpsr** » 2012-07-05 14:09

Tenman, thanks for the video - good research. Are you saying that they have not built any houses in St Lucia? If so, why would anyone think that they will build in Antigua?

JF II, I agree with your analysis. Those questions should have been answered during the due diligence. But as we have seen time and time again, we love to "cut first and then measure" rather than "measure twice and cut once".

I agree with Tenman, not every investment is with pursuing.

"Let's fix the little things with RWE before we attempt to fix the big things."

**John French II** » 2012-07-05 13:15

Notes From A Native Son Of The Rock. As in Investment it is important to "Follow The Money!". We should hopefully get answers to that question either from GoAB or Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.
A company out of Spain with building experience and results in Spain & Morocco. A&B has been recently courted by Morocco - Over 25 students studing their.
Both Countries are zones of Seismic Activity. No strong winds such as Hurricanes. Did the DCA check the Engineering Characteristics . Were the Architectural & Engineering Societies brought into the discussions to render Professional Recommendations?
Low cost housing from the website suggests Row Housing not detached.
Will the development, given that these are "Low Cost" be constructed with proper infrastructure of paved roads, sidewalks, electrical and telecommunicati ons lines, Domestic, Storm and Sanitary lines? Will there be a sewage treatment plant?
May I direct all to the Land Use and Zoning Plan which has not been passed to date. It contains the recommended Annual Housing Development for growth.
I shall leave questions of Land & Financing to others. Note Well Tenman & fnpsr's Contributions.

**tenman** » 2012-07-05 13:14

Johnny can I deduce from your argument that because I may want money, fake money is also acceptable?

..

**Johnny** » 2012-07-05 12:57

The readers of Caribarena are always asking "where are the investments that the UPP promised?" and whenever a new investment is announced, the cry it down - a la Chicken farm. The people dont want any progress!

**Dax Rebel** » 2012-07-05 12:53

Tenman, I seriously doubt that the land will be sold at $3.50 per square foot, but using your basic calculations is misleading to potential home-owners. Added to the basic loan repayment, will be compulsory life and property insurance, which will be a few hundred dollars more per month. With ever increasing electricity charges, water, telephone, internet and cable services, the monthly obligations will be more than the average salary in the public service. Remember also, as humans, we all have to eat, travel to and from work, provide for our children, plus ancillary expenses for laundry, etc. This will get nowhere. If per chance, these five thousand homes do get built, it would be an opportune time for the chicken farm investors to come on board. There will be more than enough facilities for them at hand.

**tenman** » 2012-07-05 12:35

fnpsr, I too found myself perusing their FAQ. I also did some other searches. The additional info I garnered is in the dying stages of United Workers Party (Aug 2011) in Saint Lucia, they engaged this same company to build 500 homes and there were promises of houses costing as low as 50K usd. Its just strange to me that a 0 has been added to the Saint Lucian project and we now hear in Antigua it will be 5000 homes. Attached is a video of the launching

..

**Objectivity** » 2012-07-05 12:25

When I read this article my only comment was in the form of a proverb 'A drowning man clutches at a straw'. It never ceases to amaze me how **s and scoundrels can flourish in Antigua. Mr. Hurst has a track record of failed business deals in Antigua and managed VCBIA over the precipice to almost absolute destruction and we want to entrust hundreds of acres of this nation's patrimony into his hands for 25 years. Utterly laughable. I hope heads were on shoulders when this agreement was struck. What a place we live in!!!!!

**tenman** » 2012-07-05 12:21

Dr. Dredd, if Gayle Force did not employ 1200 persons, I would like Hurst to provide evidence of how this would be possible with this new project. He can do it by showing us a similar company, targeting a similar market which has the same level of employment. A major reason for the death of many manufacturing companies like this was due to the high cost of electricity, it would be good if Hurst would tell us what would be different now. The world bank with data from 2004 stated of the OECS:

Quote:

Electricity supply and costs were the number one infrastructure related constraint cited by many of the firms interviewed for this report. As well, in some countries, in particular Antigua and Barbuda, ..there are significant shortages in capacity resulting in periodic power cuts and brown outs...In a survey of 24 exporting firms undertaken for the
OECS Export Development Unit, ‘electricity supplied by local utilities’ was ranked as the second biggest problem..

Since this was the case in 2004 when commercial costs were 17 cents US per kwh, imagine how worst is is now costs are at least 45 US cents per kwh

..

**fnpsr** » 2012-07-05 12:03

Here is what I found on Bau Panel (BP). It is out of Spain. It has business in several countries, mostly Latin America and the Caribbean. BP says that they require specialized staff. Houses are usually built on a slab. Very few people & machinery is necessary to build a house with BP. Two people are enough to erect a detached house 100m(2) in just 4 weeks. Pluming is with PVC piping or plastic. The building works can do without expensive fixed cranes and two people can easily move one panel. BP house could be defined as industrialized or a semi-prefabrica ted system, because the panel is made in the factory and delivered. It is appears to me that the houses are constructed more for seismic protection rather than for hurricanes.

Again, I question if the due diligence was done.

I invite readers to check out the FAQ in BP’s Webster. I only perused a few of the questions.

“Let’s fix the little things before we attempt to fix the big things.”

**Anu** » 2012-07-05 11:47

I have some concerns with this another housing project launched by Govt & Bau Panel System. Is this factory designed to manufacture material that will meet our building code, since our island is in a hurricane zone? How will this affect local hardware centres who are presently struggling because of a great decline of construction in Antigua? Where will citizens find money to purchase these houses, when we have a struggling economy with prediction of a further decline? If the govt wanted to do something meaningful for its citizens, they could have source finance from international lending agencies, incorporate local hardware centres & contractors, equipt the hardwares with concessions to keep the price of building materials more affordable, ask contractors to reduce their profit to make building these houses more affordable, while they supply the land to make this project a sucess. CHAPA & ABDB Bank would also have to play a role to make this a sucess whereby CHAPA oversee the construction of these houses & ABDB manages the finance of the project. This will create great financial benefits across the nation making locals financially equipped to purchase these houses. A win for all.

**Dr. Dredd** » 2012-07-05 11:37

Mr. Hurst has a reputation for failure. Check his record. From his days with the rubber company in England to Gayleforce Windows and Doors at Crabbs to the Airport. All disasters. x cost Marshall and Lester millions in losses at Gayleforce and Antigua taxpayers millions at the Airport. Why will this be aby different?

**Dr. Dredd** » 2012-07-05 11:30

People don't have jobs. People cannot pay electricity and buy food, so pray tell me: Who are purchasing these houses? Chinese?

**fnpsr** » 2012-07-05 11:11

Those are interesting points that you raised. That is why we need to see the details of the signed agreement. As I said previously, did we not lean anything from the WPP fiasco?

let's fix the little things RWE before we attempt to fix the little things.

**Jackie Spence** » 2012-07-05 11:03

I bet you don't live in Antigua! I suggest you stick to what you know!

**R. Berry** » 2012-07-05 10:50

Low income homes fall into the same bracket as Caribbean low cost carriers...high ly, unlikely to succeed.

@ fnpsr - How is the land being "given" to Baupanel for the 25 year period? They're going to have to sell the homes to finance further building; so lets say after the first 200 homes are built, the uptake is slow to non-existent do Baupanel still get to "keep" the land for the remainder of the 25 years, do they hold on to the land indefinitely?

Are they any clauses in the agreement so A&B can get back the land just in case the project is not unsuccessful?

**browngal** » 2012-07-05 10:48

Is this the same Ken Hurst who was in partnership with Lester Bird and Hugh Marshall Snr. making windows at Crabbs? Is this the same building that was being used to make these windows? Wow! wow! wow!. Were Lester and Marshall hxodxixxed? Wow! For Antiguans and Barbudans sake I sincerely hope this project works because people need jobs. On the other hand, we cannot afford ANOTHER HOUSING PROJECT with g** growing as high as the houses because persons are unable to purchase.

**Charmain Bailey** » 2012-07-05 10:39

This is welcomed news.

**Really now** » 2012-07-05 10:28

I find it hard to believe that this government would sign another housing agreement. Can someone please tell me what market research was done to justify this project. Also did they scan the market to see what would be an affordable price for low income citizens...beca use surely $135,000 is way too high. Most low income citizens work for less that 36,000 annually or 3000 monthly and this is on the high end. Come on Dr. Dr. stop insulting the intelligence of Antiguans.

Next there is the North Sound Development which sits there uncompleted and practically empty. What does this say about the market? Remember these were also low income houses...and low income earners can't afford them.

My fellow bloggers i think you get the picture.

**dadlison** » 2012-07-05 10:11

So let me see. Bau Panels decided they wanted to open an affordable home panel manufacturing plant in Antigua. As affordable homes are fairly popular in the country, and the greater region, this seems like a great way to kickstart our export industy. Oh but there is one caveat, Bau wants to guarantee a market for their product by building 5000 homes on Antigua. With guaranteed demand in place, they have borne no risk in the investment. All the risk is on our side. If noone buys the houses, they've sold their panels and can get out. Smart stuff Bau, maybe you could teach our government a thing or two about business.

Anyway, look on the bright side, maybe all these Ghost Villages we are building can become tourist attractions.

**fnpsr** » 2012-07-05 09:37

While investment opportunities are always welcomed, I am wondering if this has been properly thought out. We have seen grand announcements at Follies, HMB, North Sound, Jolly Harbor (recently), and the Chines development in the Bolans area, all yet to come to fruition.

The pitch, in order to get the land and the deal is to provide “low-income housing”. But, as the record has shown, the low-income borrowers will not be able to afford the houses.

Did we lean anything from the WPP fiasco?

“Let’s fix the little things with RWE before we attempt to fix the big things.”

**Smoke n Mirrors** » 2012-07-05 09:35

When I read the headline, I thought okay something good. It sounded interesting so I clicked to read the whole story. I stopped after I read the first sentence. How many more housing projects must we have b4 we realize that these so-called affordable homes are NOT affordable???? e?
Sigh .....another failed project . . . :sad:

**fnpsr** » 2012-07-05 09:35

I am always glad to see investment opportunity for Antigua, but as always, we do not know the details of the agreement. We know that the company gets a 25 year deal to build 5K low to middle income houses (wink, wink), which hill provide 12K jobs and add $8 M per year to the local economy. The company also said that Antigua will now be the “hub” for the Caribbean and South America for its operations. How is it then that it will only add $8M to the local economy?

The company said it would finance low-income borrowers. This is good, but it will be taking loan opportunities away from local banks and we know that the profits will certainly leave the island.

What did the government give up? Did it give the land for free or did it sell it at peppercorn prices or did it lease it at a sweetheart deal? Was the proposal presented to parliament and was the company and the officials properly vetted? I would like to know, because often we have seen that after these deals have been cut, the citizens are the ones usually left holding the proverbial bag.

**Common Cents** » 2012-07-05 09:11

Amsuingly, despite the fact that we are willing to give/sell international developers thousands of acres of land to developers (e.g.Bau Panel, Zacky Mann Farm) my sister, a born and bred Antiguan, was told that there was "no land available" when she wanted a plot to build her own house....

Go figure

**Common Cents** » 2012-07-05 09:08

With regards to the housing, another pie in the sky project. We already have to underutilized "government" housing projects that are basically empty, because there is no demand. Now we are going to build another 5,000 houses?

I'd also love to see the terms of investment, to see what Bau is getting in the deal. I find it strange a "panel" company would be investing heavily in the collapsed housing market in a third world country

**ANTIGUAN WOMAN** » 2012-07-05 09:03

5000 HOUSES?? Should a few jobs not be created first,so money will be available to purchase the houses? Who will buy them,there is hardly a middle class left. This will not happen,this man( Dr dr) needs to come to the acceptance that it is his evil deeds that is catching up with them,they will fail at everything they touch,it is Gods punishment that is upon them,i truly believe this to be so.

**tenman** » 2012-07-05 08:21

Quote:

Bau Panel Systems will construct 5,000 low-to-middle income homes at four sites, on land provided by the government...Mr. Kendrick said houses will range in cost from EC $135,000 to approximately $400,000

The lack of housing is being caused by the persons being unable to afford owning their own home. How can any low income person afford a house for 135K (before the cost of land). In addition, a plot size of 5500 sq feet will cost at least 19K (3.50 per sq foot – the lowest price -5.50 the highest - offered by government according to MP Baptiste in article “Distribution of Land to Begin Soon” 19 May 2012). A loan of at least 154K (135K+19K) will be needed which will call for payments of $1,188.60 monthly (8% annual interest for 25 years). To qualify for such a loan persons would have to earn at least $3,950 EC monthly (to qualify for the loan because monthly payment cannot be more than 30% of applicant’s income). These are clearly not low income homes
..

**Time up** » 2012-07-05 08:13

The PM's choice of words make me nervous and suspicious. Why would he affix his signature if he is not satisfied, beyond doubt, that this agreement is legitimate?
This sounds like another Clock Tower Mall, the hotel, Chicken Farm or Car Park for which the government has either turned sod, held opening ceremonies or made grand public pronouncements.

Elections are definitely coming and drowning men are clutching at straws while schemers are scheming. Antigua and Barbuda people no folly!!!

**james c** » 2012-07-05 08:01

On paper sounds good but Hurst does not have an enviable track record when it comes to business!

**PLM** » 2012-07-05 07:49

Now, this is the kind of long term development we need. PM Spencer better make sure these jobs to go Antiguans. Blue skies smiling at me; nothing but blue skies do I see…

**Point Man** » 2012-07-05 07:46

it looks like Pappa Lazy getting some easy money? Sounds like a possible conflict of interest to me!

Brown has to watch out Pappa Lazy going have plenty money to throw about this election!

**Slapping Hand** » 2012-07-05 07:40

If Senator Colin Derrick is the lawyer for the Investment Company, isn't that a conflict of interest?

This $200million over 25years works out to an average of $8million per year. If one takes into account the future value of money, that amount decreases in real value over time.

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to give the land to local contractors to use as security and get the Chinese Government to provide funding (low interest loans) to the local contractors?

Then again that would have been too much to figure out!

Finally, how many of Dr Dr constituents will be able to afford one of these homes?

**young analyst** » 2012-07-05 07:21

Honestly i dont even know what to make of this development maybe here we go again (handovereyes). Go ahead guys try win votes

**R. Berry** » 2012-07-05 07:10

If all sides keep to the agreement, it will be a great success for Antigua & Barbuda,” PM Spencer said.

Why would the PM make the above statement, is he suspicious about one party or the next or both? This comment certainly doesn't speak of 100% confidence.

If he's not confident then how are the people who you wish to buy the homes are to feel? Poor choice of words from Mr. PM.

I wish the project every success.

**Seriously?** » 2012-07-05 03:27

The next Sir Allen???

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